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The Strategy Inside Everything

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Melanie Deziel Has Got a Story for You

Melanie Deziel, Founder of StoryFuel talks about her training in journalism and how she uses the tenets she learned in J school to solve problems for brands. She’s seen the change in media first hand, and come from the ever-shrinking newsrooms with some insights.

[00:00:21] Adam Pierno: All right, very good. All right. Welcome back to another episode of The Strategy Inside Everything. I'm really glad to be back with you guys. It’s been a little bit of a hiatus in recording. Although the episodes have kept pace in release, they seem to come in batches, and this is the first of the next wave of conversations and one I am really looking forward to having. Today, I have the Founder of StoryFuel, Melanie Deziel. Melanie, how are you today?

[00:00:51] Melanie Deziel: Good, good. Thanks for letting me help start off this next wave.

[00:00:55] Adam: I've been looking forward to this one; this is going to be really fun. Thank you for participating. I think we'd scheduled this a month ago or so.

[00:01:03] Melanie: We did. It’s been a long time in the making.

[00:01:06] Adam: Too packed schedule, so thank you for finding an hour for me, I appreciate it.

[00:01:13] Melanie: [chuckles] Absolutely.

[00:01:14] Adam: I think our listeners are going to appreciate it as well. Tell us, before we get going on the topic today, give us a little bit of a sense of how you started StoryFuel, where you’ve been, and what you did leading up to that that got you going there and what you're up to now.

[00:01:31] Melanie: Yes, absolutely. StoryFuel is a firm that really focused on teaching marketers how to tell better stories. A lot of that, the whole philosophy in the approach comes from my background as a journalist. I studied journalism, undergrad, graduate school, I always thought I would be a journalist in an editorial newsroom somewhere telling compelling stories.

I found myself looking for a job at a time when those jobs in editorial newsrooms were less and less available. I put those same skills to work of finding stories, interviewing sources, and trying to figure out what are the stories that make people tick, just to put it to work in a marketing context, working with brands? I spent some time at the Huffington Post, at The New York Times as their first editor of branded content, at Time Incorporated, working on all 35 of the US publications just telling brand stories. StoryFuel is my way of taking that mission on my own shoulders and helping as many brands as I possibly can to come to love storytelling as much as I do.

[00:02:31] Adam: That’s awesome. Did you ever work as a journalist as you were working your way up or were you plugged right into branded content and branded storytelling?

[00:02:41] Melanie: It’s so weird for me to think about that, actually. I don’t think I've actually held a full-time job in journalism despite the fact that I studied it for years, I lead multiple student publications, I had, I think, five or six different internships, including I interned at Rolling Stone. I interned at a bunch of local newspapers and magazines, but no, all my full-time roles as soon as I finally graduated from graduate school, [chuckles] my first step into that world was into branded content.

[00:03:10] Adam:  It’s amazing. Now, there are probably majors in branded content, and I'm sure there weren’t when you were in school and trying to crack the journalism ranks.

[00:03:20] Melanie: Yes. There definitely was no education on that front when I was in school. Believe it or not, there's still very little of that now. I just, this year, helped develop a Masters' course in content marketing for Fairleigh Dickinson University here in New Jersey, where I'm based. It was the first time they had run that course for their Masters in marketing, and we developed it from scratch.

What I found as I was doing that is there weren’t a lot of things for me to look to, there wasn’t a consistent-- There's no textbook, there are no curriculums out there. I think it's really important because those of us who are trained as journalists, we have a really innate understanding of what makes good storytelling. We have an ability to create under strict deadlines and work with multiple different stakeholders in the forms of different editors, so those skills are highly transferable into a really growing market of content marketing and branded content jobs. I hope that there's more of those kinds of courses because I think we're helping set up the next generation of storytellers for even more potential job opportunities.

[00:04:21] Adam: It's a weird time for journalism and for content in general, just the way everything is moving and how fluid everything is, especially in news media, how things are changing every second.

[00:04:35] Melanie: That’s for sure. It’s so weird to think about because I even think back to when I was in school, which wasn’t truthfully all that long ago, we had a full course on print layout and design.

[laughter]

[00:04:44] Melanie: We were, even at that point, not incredibly digitally-focused into it, and that’s part of why I ended up going to grad school: truthfully, it is my education had not caught up to the market that I was graduating into, so I knew I needed to go somewhere where I could learn those digital skills, or I wasn’t going to cut it, or [laughs] I wasn’t going to be able to stay employed. Definitely, there needs to be some catching up because this market changes so fast, and the way that we tell stories changes so fast. It’s really hard to keep up.

[00:05:10] Adam: The curriculum rarely does it. That’s not just for journalism but for a lot of industry, the curriculum at the college level or university level really can’t keep pace with the speed of business and the speed of culture.

[00:05:24] Melanie: Yes, and I think, on some level, it's easy to stick your nose up and think, "Oh, academia, they're so slow. They're so behind," but having gone through the process, developing a course from scratch, this was a six-month process. It was very in-depth, you have to research and verify all the sources. You have to put things through testing to make sure that they're actually achieving your running objectives.

You've got to check things against various requirements to make sure that it meets the rigor of whatever program it's a part of, so having gone through it, I understand why it takes so much time. I started developing that course, we spent six months building it, so by the time it went live, it was nearly a year after we had first discussed it, and we worked pretty quickly, so I can see why it's so hard. If you want it to be something of quality, it does take a good amount of time to pull all that together.

[00:06:14] Adam: Yes. I think that applies to anything if you almost put a piece of content in a timeline as well, it's like if you want it to be really good, it often takes longer than you want it to take to put it together and get it out there.

[00:06:27] Melanie: I think that's also why it's important to have a balance at certain things, especially for your content strategy, it's easy to over-invest or over-index on these big, giant projects and put all your eggs in one basket, but you've got to feed the machine in between. Every meal doesn’t have to be Thanksgiving; sometimes, it's okay to have a quick bite or a snack in between.

[00:06:47] Adam: [laughs] I like that, that’s a good metaphor, although I do wish every meal could be Thanksgiving, I wouldn’t be upset if it was.

[00:06:54] Melanie:  I wouldn’t be upset. [chuckles]

[00:06:55] Adam: Yes, right? Come on, we all want some cranberry sauce. Let’s talk about storytelling as it relates to branded content, then how you apply your journalism degree, and the things you learned as you were breaking in as a journalist, some of those things you apply.

[00:07:18] Melanie: I think it was pretty shocking for me when I first ended up stepping into branded content. Honestly, I didn’t know what I was getting into. I was just graduating from school, I was looking for any job, preferably, at the time, in New York City, where I could put some of my skills to use. It was actually a recruiter who had said, "You might do well in this branded content role."

I didn’t have a great sense of what it was at the time, but it sounded close enough in terms of the skills I needed. I think I was surprised how much of what I had learned in J school translated really well to this brand storytelling environment because a lot of what you're doing is trying to find story ideas, and if you're a journalist in a newsroom anywhere in this country, you have a minimum. You’ve got an assignment, you have a beat, and your job is to consistently come up with fresh ways to cover the school board or high school baseball or whatever else you're assigned to.

You are struggling, and that’s really your mission: to go out and find new ways to tell what might, otherwise, be a similar story. That sense of story-mining and digging for story ideas was very similar. You're working with a client over the course of a year, and you’ve got to tell small business loan stories. You have that same challenge of trying to come up with new ways, new perspectives, new sources, and new approaches.

That, I think, was highly, highly transferable. Then, I think the other thing that worked really well is I had been trained on how to not be precious about the things that I create. Journalists are used to being edited. Almost everything we create, at least in any newsroom worth its salt, is going to have editors, maybe more than one, who are seeing your copy, who are giving you feedback, who are telling you to change something or try a new approach.

That made it so that it was very easy for me to be in a marketing environment where a brand or a client or an agency is saying, "Hey, I don’t like that source. Try it again," or "Okay, I changed my mind, and now, I want it to be a video." Having to take your idea and adapt it and respond to feedback, I think going through a journalism education, where that’s what it’s all about, really helped me from taking it personally.

What I found is some of my colleagues who may not have gone that route, they might get frustrated and feel like, "Man, I worked so hard on this thing, and now we’ve got to change it." For me, I was seeing it as a creative challenge. It's like, "All right. How do I tell a story that’s just as good without photos or a story that’s just as good in half the time?" For me, having come from a background where I was constantly being edited, given feedback, and having inches cut off a story, it helped me be able to adapt that to a brand environment, where you have a lot of stakeholders and very tight timelines.

 

[00:09:58] Adam: That’s really interesting. Let's dig into that bit a little bit, about being able to take feedback and dealing with editors because I see that a lot in all facets of marketing where oversight or approvals or feedback becomes this thing that's like, "Well, I'm the expert," or "You asked me to do this, and here it is, so it should be done," or frustration with feedback versus-- I've never worked in a newsroom, or I did very briefly early on in my career, so give me a little bit more insight into how that exchange goes and what you learned from that, working with editors and having that kind of oversight into your work.

[00:10:42] Melanie: I think to be fair, it's a balance. I don't want to pretend that I accepted every suggestion and piece of feedback from a brand because I also feel, really strongly, that when you're being brought in as a storyteller to be an expert, the brand is bringing you in because they don't know storytelling, or they don't know how to create the kind of content they want to create.

I feel, pretty strongly, that it's my responsibility, as that person, to be honest about the things they're asking us to do. You do have to draw a fine line between "this thing you're asking me to do, is this valid from a brand perspective and will it actually help fit the brief or help us accomplish our objective better, or is this someone who thinks they understand what makes storytelling good and is making a misguided judgment? Can I help them correct that in service of the best possible piece or a better experience for our readers?"

If I'm working with a brand, say, I'm working on a story and they say, "Look, we don't want you to use that photo because there's too much green in the background, and that's our competitor's color." Now, you could try to die on that hill, but the reality is, from their perspective, that's a valid piece of feedback. As a creator, I can probably find another image that still serves the story and the reader well and takes their concern into account, so that's not something I'd want to fight on; that's an easy change for us to make.

Swapping out an image or using a different word somewhere, those are valid feedback if it's in service of the brand and service of the story. Where I draw a line is if a brand comes in and says, "Look, we want you to only quote people who work at our company, we want you to use this dry headshot of our executive as the dominant image, and we'd like you to make a full-bleed logo that goes across the whole page."

Now in those instances, that's not in service of the story; it's fully in service of the brand, and it actually does a disservice to our readers to use lower quality imagery or oversized brand logos. Things like that that run contrary to our mission to tell a good story that's going to engage our readers, I feel like it's my responsibility to step up and say, "Look, I understand what you're trying to accomplish: you want to make sure your role in this content is clear; however, if we go that route with the giant logo or only sources from your company, that's going to create the opposite effect in our readers. They're going to feel distraught. They're not going to trust what we're creating or [crostalk]"

[00:13:07] Adam: Their antennas are going to go up right away.

[00:13:09] Melanie: Exactly, "so in service of that, here's another way we can make your branding more clear," so coming up with an alternative and being able to stand up and say, "Look, I know you think this is what's going to help you accomplish that, but here's what that would actually do." I think most people are grateful. With any other expert in your life, if you told a contractor, "Hey, I want you to knock out this wall," and he knows that that's a load-bearing wall, and it's going to cause you structural problems, you would hope and trust that even if you think it looks better that way, he would stop you from making a mistake that's going to hurt your ultimate mission. [chuckles] I feel that same responsibility of if you're about to try to knock down a load-bearing wall, it's my job to save you from bringing it tumbling down.

[00:13:52] Adam: I like that analogy as well. You're firing on all cylinders today, Melanie, I like that. Do you have full-time staff that encounter these issues with feedback? When you see that, I would imagine, as I work with a lot of younger people, trying to teach them, explain to them, coach them to say, "Hey, be--" What you just described is a great example of objectivity that's okay, I can step back out of myself and look at this feedback objectively, and I can just passionately review it and say, "Okay, they're trying to do this, or they think they're making it better in this way, so let me think of a way in."

When I was younger, I didn't have that sense of anything really, except "I know what I'm doing, and why don't they listen to me?" The client, they just want a big logo that you brought up, which I've never experienced; clients usually don't want a giant logo. I wish that was the case. How do you how do you coach that?

[00:14:53] Melanie: It's a tough conversation. I think this is one of those things, like many things, that you just get better at the more you've done it. I feel we're not so much involved in the creation of the content, so we run into this less and less. We're really focused on strategy and education, so we're not as involved in those kinds of conversations as I used to be when I was at T Brand Studio, or Time Inc. or HuffPost creating the content on behalf of brands.

There, we ran into that a lot. What I found is, the folks who were coming from a more creative background, who are maybe designers or photographers or videographers, who have a real sense of their art, they have a real voice and a perspective and their way that they like to create, that is a little bit more difficult for them, sometimes, to process that feedback because they have a vision of what they want it to look like.

Especially if they're used to working in a creative field or filmmaking or something, they're often not as used to having someone come in and tell them that their vision should be different. Sometimes, that's a little bit harder for them, they may not be as used to a journalist who's used to being edited, not in all cases, of course, but in many cases, it's a new experience for them to have that sort of feedback and to have to find a way to coach people through that.

The best thing that I have found is just to take a step back, usually offline, so not on a client call, not on a client-email thread, and just sit with them and ask, "What was the suggestion or the feedback, the request you got from the brand? What do you think was their goal in making that request or that feedback? What's the root of that?" Because they don't really want a bigger logo; they want a bigger brand presence, or they don't really want--

It's not about how many quotes from a certain executive; it's about authority, so trying to break down to the motivation behind the feedback, then see if we can find another way to address that that doesn't meaningfully impact the quality of the piece. A great example that I always say is usually an easy win is brand colors. If we're working on a really big piece, and the brand is making requests that tell me they don't feel their brand is present enough, like the bigger logos or "more quotes from our executives," that says to me, "This brand doesn't feel like they are present enough in this piece."

One thing we can do that's very easy is swap out some highlight colors or accent colors to match their brand colors. For them, that's going to feel much more branded, it's going to feel much more familiar, and for us, it's not meaningfully changing the quality of the piece or the story that we're trying to tell. Changing the color of text in a lower third, generally, is not going to derail the whole quality of a video, but it will make that brand feel like they have a place there, or changing the color of hyperlinks [inaudible 00:17:33]

Exactly, changing the color of hyperlinks in an article or subtitles in an article page, not a huge change, it doesn't really hurt our readers' experience, but it makes that brand feel like, "Oh, I see myself. I see myself here." Colors is one of those things that I think is a very easy negotiating point, something very easy to give the brand that makes them happy and doesn't hurt your overall vision and mission for the piece and the ultimate experience that your reader or viewer has.

[00:17:59] Adam: That's cool. Let's talk about research. In Strategy, one of my favorite parts of the job is research, whatever I'm working on, I can really lose myself and lose hours diving into facts, figures, and data, and if I'm conducting research, I love it. Talk to me about how you apply the lessons from journalistic research when you're telling a story for a brand or crafting a story for a brand.

[00:18:25] Melanie: I don't think I'm unique in this regard, but one of the reasons I got into journalism, in the first place, is because I'm a very, very curious person. I want to know how everything works, and I want to understand experiences that I haven't had. I love digging into that kind of stuff. My favorite part, especially when I started out and I was really very much in the content production side, was the explicit permission to just become an expert on something that I didn't understand and to be able to transfer that to other people.

Really great examples of this, I had the chance when I was at The New York Times and T Brand Studio, we created the brand content that lived on The New York Times' platform.

We were working with Orange Is The New Black, the show on Netflix. For that piece, we pitched and ultimately created an investigative piece on what it's really like to be a woman in prison. Lucky me, I've never had that experience myself, so I didn't have any perspective to share there, but I got the amazing opportunity to spend 40+ hours interviewing current inmates, former inmates, prison reform workers, psychologists, sociologists, guards who work inside of prisons, all of these different people with these rich, rich perspectives.

Also, I spent-- God, I don't even know how many hours digging through government data and studies about how you get impacted when you're in prison, how it impacts families, recidivism rates, people who get out of prison and end back in prison, all those contributing factors. I spent some time to actually read the new inmate-onboarding documents to understand if I were coming in, what information was I being given?

For me, it was this amazing experience to see a whole new side of the world that I had never been able to see and to have the pleasure and the responsibility of pooling all that together in a way that makes it palatable and easy to understand for someone else who had never had that experience to turn it into this investigative piece that we created in a three-part mini documentary and all the infographics.

To really translate all of that research into something other people could consume, enjoy, and learn from was super fun for me. Getting to do that with small businesses, ballet, the science of fatherhood, and all these other topics that I had never gotten to cover editorially, but I got to cover by partnering with really amazing brands that wanted to tell those kinds of stories, in that regard, it feels very similar to me. As a creator for brand content, you still get to feed that curiosity and dig into a topic, and you still get to put all of that together into something that makes it enjoyable for other people to learn too.

[00:21:05] Adam: Do you think that's a function of the budget or the timeline or some of it on the individual or the team that's creating the story to go and dig in in that way and come up with an idea for the brand that's really that media that you can really run with it and do that research because so much of what I see is, branded content definitely falls short of what you just described for Orange Is The New Black? You know what I mean? Where's the line there?

[00:21:33] Melanie: Yes, absolutely. A lot of it is based on the context. The stuff we're talking about here is native advertising, it's advertising and content that fits the platform that it's being hosted on. In the case of The New York Times, readers expect in-depth content, multimedia content, well-reported and well-sourced content, so in that context, it's very easy to successfully pitch and ultimately create really in-depth, rigorous, well-reported, and well-written content pieces.

In a different context, that's maybe not a good fit and maybe not even necessary. When I worked at HuffPost, we were mostly creating listicles, slideshows, and short blog posts. A great example when I was there, I worked on a program, at HuffPost, called Live Better America in partnership with General Mills. We were working with brands like Progresso Soup, Green Giant, Yoplait, and Cheerios, all those in their portfolio.

I would create something like 10 Recipes You Didn't Know You Could Substitute Greek Yogurt In for Yoplait. In that instance, if it's living on the Healthy Living section of HuffPost, where people are looking for healthy recipes, that is much more applicable to them. That's what our readers actually want. It's much more in context. Had we created something super reported about the science of Greek yogurt, that probably wouldn't have performed as well; it wasn't what our readers of HuffPost were expecting.

By contrast, on The New York Times, that is what people would be expecting. I always try to emphasize for people that we have this tendency to try to categorize content as good or bad, and there really isn't good and bad content. In most cases, it's more a matter of context, what is a good fit for this place and what is a good fit for this place because something that could be good in one location on one platform is bad in another location and on another platform? [chuckles] It's more a question of context than of flat objective quality.

[00:23:28] Adam: Yes, because I could argue from the brand perspective, either story 10 Recipes You Didn't Know Were Great with Greek Yogurt or the science of Greek yogurt, the brand should be like, "Oh, either one of those are great. It could be really rich for us," but it's context in terms of where the story is going to live, who's reading it, and how they're reading and consuming it, so that listicle is perfect for HuffPost.

[00:23:53] Melanie: Well, exactly. You know by now, I'm loving analogy. I just think about if you and your partner are going out for your anniversary dinner, what is a good dinner to you is very different from maybe your four-year-old who wants to stop at McDonald’s desperately and have a happy meal and thinks is a good meal. Now, is one good or bad? Are you going to tell your child they're wrong and "we're going to this Michelin Star restaurant, and you're going to eat a weird goo that you've never seen before because that's good"? No, of course not, it's all about-

[00:24:22] Adam: You’ll be paying the price for that.

[00:24:23] Melanie: [laughs] Literally, yes. It's all about context and what the audience in a certain environment is expecting and how do you as a brand and you as a storyteller rise to meet those expectations?

[00:24:34] Adam: I really like that. What other lessons have you learned from journalism training that you find yourself applying to brand storytelling or branded content?

[00:24:45] Melanie: One of the things that I think is a lesson for marketers, honestly, whether they are necessarily in content or not, is to really let the message or the story determine the format and not the other way around. It's really easy, in a marketing context, to get in a room and say, "Man, we need five videos," or "I need three emails."

If you haven't put any thought into what's going to be inside of those things, there's a pretty good chance you've picked the wrong format that's not going to tell that story or deliver that message in the best way.

When you're in an editorial newsroom, your editor doesn't say, "I need you to go make three videos about the town hall meeting"; they say, "I need three pieces or three stories." Then, you go there and you say, "Okay, I’ve got one story, it's going to be an interview with this person. One story, I took a video, and we can actually cut that together, that's going to tell the story of the meeting. Then, I actually think we should do a comparative piece about which policies from the last meeting have been brought up and brought to fruition."

You have an assignment, you know what your theme or your topic or your story is. Then, based on that information, once you know what your objective is and what you have to put together, then you decide "What's the best way for me to deliver that information to my audience? Is it a story, a written story? Is it a video? Is it a Facebook Live? Is it an e-book PDF of some kind?"

Really, I think that's one thing that stuck with me: it is, figure out the story first. What's the message? What am I trying to tell people? Then ask, what is the best way to deliver that story to my audience that they see and they understand?

[00:26:23] Adam: That's really smart. Is part of that based on the assets you have at the beginning in that it's more like fitting those things together than just saying, "We need five videos," or "We need this much content," and taking an inventory of "Hey, these are the pieces we have," or is it really starting with "these are the chapters to the story that we want to tell, and the best way to tell Chapter 3 is a video, but the other chapters are better as text or audio or something else"?

[00:26:51] Melanie: Yes, some of it can definitely be based on inventory. Like if you look and you're like, "Man, we've got a ton of photos. We've got to find a way to use these," maybe a slideshow is a good way to do it. Some of it is based on inventory and trying to make use of the things that you have, but on some level, some of it is also just trying to understand the best way to convey a message.

If you're talking about you have a bunch of things in front of you that are all highly-dense, statistical information and results from studies and numerical outcomes, then trying to force that into a written piece, it's going to be hard for you to do it. It's going to be hard for your readers to understand it. If you think, "Man, I’ve got a lot of numbers. How do I make that palatable? How do I make it understandable?", it might come to you that an infographic is a really easy way to do that, to turn something that might be complex if you try to write it out and to visualize it, that makes it easier for people to understand.

By the opposite token, maybe you're trying to explain cloud computing, and it's this highly-intangible thing that's very hard to depict visually. Maybe you need to do an interview, or you need to do some custom illustrations to try to make sense of it because if you are just going to do a talking-head video with some guy explaining what cloud computing is and it's 20 minutes long, you should instinctively know that's not going to be the most compelling way to deliver that information.

[laughter]

[00:28:08] Melanie: A lot of it, yes, it's topic, it's based on your inventory, and it's just asking, how do I make this easy for people to understand and, on some level, fun? You want it to be fun too; otherwise, everything would just be an infographic and an e-book. There has to be some engaging element. How do I make it fun to consume this?

[00:28:26] Adam: Or at least, elicit the emotion that I needed to get out of people.

[00:28:31] Melanie: Right, right. Not everything is fun, I suppose.

[laughter]

[00:28:35] Adam: I wish it was. I guess at Huffington Post, I bet a lot of it, more of it was fun than anything else.

[00:28:42] Melanie: Yes, for sure. There's a lot of easy parallels to draw between single campaigns or single brand partners who have worked with multiple publications to create wildly different things that were very effective. That in-depth investigative piece that I talked about for Orange Is The New Black, that was with The New York Times, but during that same week, they created a piece with Wired, Wired magazine, that was all about the trend of streaming, the timeline of how streaming developed, and how much we've been much more appropriate for that audience.

During the same week, they created a listicle on BuzzFeed called 21 Reasons Prison Might Not Be So Bad After All, and it was all gifs from the show and funny one-liners. The same sort of mission of "we need to make people aware of Netflix and hopefully, that this show is available to stream," they took an investigative text-based approach, they took a gif-based listicle approach with a much lighter tone, and they also took more of a scientific approach of saying, "All right, let's look at the data, let's depict the trends of streaming and the technology that makes it possible."

There's lots of different ways to tell a story, and I think if you're in a position to come up with these ideas, really challenging yourself to try to think of each idea you come up with, each story you come up with, try to see how it could come to life in all those different formats, and that would help you decide which one you think is going to be best.

[00:30:06] Adam: Great, great insight and great thinking about not only the end user but the context of where they're viewing it and what's going to get through to them the best at that time.

[00:30:15] Melanie: Yes, absolutely.

[00:30:18] Adam: This has been really good. Thank you, Melanie, so much for making time. Tell people where they can find you online.

[00:30:25] Melanie: If you want to learn more of what we do at StoryFuel, our website is storyfuel.co. You can find me on most social networks, I'm Melanie Deziel, I'm MDeziel or MelDeziel, depending on where you look, and that's D-E-Z-I-E-L. Actually, I have a free story-idea guide for anyone who may want some help trying to put this kind of thing together. You can find that at storyfuel.co/ideaguide, and that would be, hopefully, helpful if you're having some challenges trying to come up with ideas. This should help you get right through it.

[00:30:58] Adam: That's awesome. Again, thank you very much. This is really fun talk, and now, I have to go get some Thanksgiving dinner since you put that in my mind. I'm going to go have some stuffing.

[00:31:09] Melanie: [laughs] Sounds good to me, stuffing is always the best part.

[00:31:11] Adam: Yes, absolutely. All right. Thanks again, and I hope to talk to you soon.

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Adam Pierno