Willem van de Horst - All games are mind games
Ice Cream For Everyone host and strategist Willem van de Horst joins us for this chat on how games open your mind, your approach to teams and why we play.
[00:00:30] Adam Pierno: All right, welcome back to another episode of The Strategy Inside Everything. This is a very, very exciting show for me. For those listening, I have a feeling that you're going to recognize this voice. Go ahead and give them the sneak peeks of the voice here.
[00:00:45] Willem: "Hi, everyone."
[00:00:46] Adam: Yes, that's right this is Willem van der Horst, you recognize him from the Ice Cream for Everybody podcast.
[00:00:53] Willem: For everyone.
[00:00:55] Adam: I'm sorry, Ice Cream for Everyone. I apologize.
[00:00:57] Willem: It's very close, though.
[00:00:58] Adam: Yes, just missed it. There is a lot of podcasts out there, I can't remember them all.
[00:01:02] Willem: There are tons of podcasts, so that I would be even-- I'm sure some of you people listening have not heard about it at all.
[00:01:09] Adam: Well, I think there is probably a lot of overlap in our audience, I think you have probably more people outside of advertising, I think my audience is almost all advertising people.
[00:01:19] Willem: Actually I have a good mix, I think. I would love to be able to say what the split is episode per episode. I have a good mix with like people who are into tabletop gaming, and people who are in advertising. I've had quite a few people who work in advertising tell me that they ended up being more interested in the episodes that were about not advertising, so gaming, or design or product design like that.
[00:01:47] Adam: And that is why we have Willem on the show today, because, yes, he's a very intelligent strategist, and currently working at Energy BBDO. Smart guy, but on this show as everybody knows, yes we talk strategy, but I like to talk to people about there other passions, there other interests, and we get behind the scenes of how those things either developed strategy or the strategy that goes into them.
So, Willem came up with the idea to talk about tabletop role-playing games, and I'm super interested, having heard a couple of episodes of his show about it, and just something that I think that is not that familiar to a lot of people, so I think it's really interesting. But before we get into that, Willem, do you want to tell them a little bit about your background for those who haven't heard your show?
[00:02:35] Willem: Yes, sure. Absolutely. As you said, my names are Willem van der Horst. I'm a mix of different places, we would just establish before we hit the record button that we're both born in Long Island, I think you were also born there, right?
[00:02:49] Adam: I was, yes.
[00:02:50] Willem: So, I was born in Long Island, and then was raised actually in France. I moved to France when I was six years old, so, I can pretend the French accent but--
[00:02:59] Adam: [laughs] Well done.
[00:03:01] Willem: [French language] My father is Dutch hence my very Dutch name, my mum is originally Spanish. My grandparents are Spanish, and fled after the civil war to the south of France. So, I did all my education in Paris, and then I lived London for many years. My background is first in design, and then I worked in training, in growth and development program for several years, then I transitioned to work into an advertising and marketing and strategy as a planner and kept traveling. I worked in London for several years and then I traveled around south-east Asia and China, and ended up working in Singapore, and then back in Europe, and now this year I moved to the US and ended up in Chicago.
As we said, I've now been working at Energy BBDO for a few months and a couple of years ago, started hosting-- well I started Ice Cream for Everyone as like the main umbrella for my blog and my writing, and my consulting, as a freelance planner and marketing consultant. Then created my podcast called Ice Cream for Everyone as well, in which I have conversations with a variety of creators, to really dig into what inspires them, and those tend to be quiet a few of them revolving around my own interests, so marketing and advertising and game design.
[00:04:19] Adam: Yes, its a really good show. I suggest that if you like this show you'd probably will like Willem show as well, so go ahead and give it a listen. I think there some names in the guest lists that you will definitely recognize. So, let's jump in and let's talk a little bit about the strategy inside tabletop role-playing games. I mentioned to you earlier in a twitter chat that we were having, that I played a couple of games growing up one of them was, Warhammer 40k, which is not exactly a tabletop RPG but a kin to it.
[00:04:54] Willem: There is a tabletop RPG within that universe though but --
[00:04:57] Adam: Is that Space Hulk? or is that a different one?
[00:05:00] Willem: No, its called Dark Heresy, it's one of them, there are several.
[00:05:04] Adam: Okay, but give people a little bit more background on tabletop role-playing, what it is and what you love about it.
[00:05:12] Willem: Yes, let's start there. This is a great question, I've actually literally asked the same questions of several game designers. So, the first main thing you hear is a lot of people have heard about Dungeons & Dragons--
[00:05:25] Adam: That's where people s minds go.
[00:05:27] Willem: Yes, exactly. It's not necessarily the only place to go, but it is quite a popular one. But to backtrack into really as broad as you can go, what I would say and I'm really stealing this from other people that have heard them say that is, what a tabletop role-playing game is, it's a collaborative storytelling game and experience. So, you gather with your friends around the table and you're going to tell a story together, and you're going to be interpreting different roles and characters within that story.
One of the things that trips a lot of people up when they here that, they are like, "Okay, how do you win?" you like, well the goal of the whole thing is to have a good time together and tell a good story, it's not actually to win anything. It functions differently from other games in that sense.
[00:06:17] Adam: So, its more about-- there is a board game, I think everybody probably knows about Catan, or Settlers of Catan is what it was, that follows more of the rules that you just laid out. It's more about collaborating and telling-- working together to complete the game versus competing Monopoly where families literally get divorced over grounds of Monopoly.
[00:06:43] Willem: Yes. A lot of game designers often-- I mean, if you just google it, you can find a bunch of articles that are stating and explaining exactly why Monopoly is a really bad board game. I would rectify a slightly bit of what you're saying, which is Settlers of Catan is just to be-- I'm going to be a little bit nerdy and rigorous about it, but I did actually give a presentation at a planning conference a few years ago about exactly that, by different types of games.
So, I looked into how the genres are categorized. Catan is a what is called a European or German-style board game, and it's not that it's not competitive, because you're competing against other players, but the game mechanics make it that, until the very end you're not sure who's winning, and you have to count the points at the end. And then you have this other sub-genre which is cooperative board games, which is been getting a lot of popularity and one good example would be pandemic, where you do play together and all the players play together to beat a common goal in the case of a pandemic as you try and beat a global epidemic.
[00:07:52] Adam: Really interesting. I mean, I can nerd out on this stuff and get really into the neurons of the different types of games.
[00:07:59] Willem: So that's like a topic of its own.
[00:08:03] Adam: I know, that's what I find so interesting. I think what was most interesting to me is, I enjoy the games and in fact, I'm ordering some games to play with my strategy team here, as a kind of team building, and also as a training exercise, and I'll pick your brain on some at the end of this. But I wanted to talk to you about-- It sounds like you've talked to a lot about game designers and you've done some work on the theory behind it, what makes a successful collaborate game where everybody is working together, if not towards a common end, at least to a working together to keep the game moving?
[00:08:40] Willem: Well I'm going to keep it to stay on the topic and keep it to tabletop role-playing games.
[00:08:47] Adam: Perfect.
[00:08:48] Willem: And, just to make some a couple of parallels, I think one thing really important and interesting is that: one, there is team building and team experience, which is really important and I think interesting from a, both, friendship and a social perspective, but also a professional perspective. You're talking about doing it with your strategy team, I think it's unlucky doing the same thing in organizing some kind of social network as well, also because I'm looking for people to play with anyway.
What makes the collaborative and cooperative experience successful, and that's a topic that does come up in tabletop role-playing games where you have-- Let's take a classic like, Dungeons & Dragons, and I don't really play much Dungeons & Dragons, like there's a lot of different flavors. If you go eat out at a restaurant you have different types of cuisines, and tabletop role-playing games are the same. Like there is as many as there are movie genres. So, you going to have like your classic Sci-Fi, drama, cry movie and at some other end of the spectrum you're going to have experimental art house type stuff that are also role-playing games.
In the traditional sense of the term, just to backtrack and still layout a little bit more about what it is. You have a group of people that are typically two but mostly three to six people. One person is called the game master, or the dungeon master, or the moderator, and that person has typically read all the rules of the game and that can mean a really big fit coffee table book or a long or short PDF these days. The collections like the big books and the-- I can go on about that later.
[00:10:34] Adam: Well, I do have a question. As new games, because I remember Dungeon Gods and how crazy they were, as new games are developed, as the books are getting thinner and thinner and easier and easier to get more people involved or they equally dense and full of mythology?
[00:10:51] Willem: You can have both-- There's been more of a trend these past few years for different types of games that are thinner, easier to approach that don't need a lot of knowledge, that anybody can pick up and play quite easily. There's also still very heavy, very thick books as long as there's an audience. The thing that I would say was critical in carrying both of those together, was crowdfunding platforms and Kickstarter in particular.
I talked to Luke Crane, who's the head of the games for Kickstarter, and the games category is one of the most successful within Kickstarter overall. A lot of other communities look towards the gaming community to inspire themselves, and look at how they're running their crowdfunding campaigns and role-playing games is a big part of that. You would have a game like Fiasco, for example, which is considered "Indie tabletop role-playing games". And that's a game that's very thin, very easy to pick up and you don't need a lot of knowledge and the blueprint for what that game is, is a Coen brothers movie, typically say, Fargo. And what you're doing in that game is about interpreting characters as if you were in a movie like Fargo.
[00:12:13] Adam: That's interesting.
[00:12:14] Willem: Yes, and it's basically you're in some kind of crying dramedy, where everything that could possibly go wrong does. As opposed to something that is more "traditional", I would say, where you might have a big book that describes the whole background of the Lord of the Rings and how high the mountains are and what's the history of the Alvin tribe, and like what type of mineral did the dwarfs mine in that mine where they go through and fight the Balrog.
You have everything and anything in terms of information that can all be used as a sandbox and inspiration to write synopsis for what an adventure could be. And back to the role, you have one person in the group that plays the moderator, game master, and that persons generally knows about all the rules and that person brings the world to life, the world that you're playing in to life for other players. Then the other players interpret just one character while the moderator person interprets the world.
[00:13:23] Adam: As the moderator or the game master, is there job then? They bring the world to life so they're reading the rules. If you enter a new space, they're presenting the theater to you that you're in, or there is new situation. Is there job to coax collaboration or is their job really just to keep the show moving and to keep the game progressing?
[00:13:45] Willem: That's a matter of opinion. I would say their job-- that's my opinion. I would say their job is to make sure that everybody is having a blast.
[00:13:56] Adam: Got it. Whatever that means.
[00:13:57] Willem: I would say their job is to make sure everybody is having a blast. Coaxing people in a direction is a typical thing that you would tend to do in tabletop role-playing games and it has-- the technical term is railroading. You like taking people on an adventure and then you're kind of forcing them to go in a direction. That's usually something that you would do if you don't have a lot of experience so that's can be frowned upon.
That's what I did when we were 12 or 13 and we're kind of young and we were trying to-- the difference between what is a collaborative game or not. If you're trying to coax people in a direction, you're not really working collaboratively anymore. Or what are you trying to do? Are you trying to write a novel with a story and you want the people to fit in it? Or are you creating this universe for the people that you're with to be elaborating and evolving the way that they wish?
[00:14:56] Adam: Yes. And so as you're going, you're responsible for-- [crosstalk]
[00:14:59] Willem: Hope I'm making sense and not going too far?
[00:15:01] Adam: No, you are making sense. It's really interesting.
[00:15:05] Willem: I've not even actually answered the question you originally asked [laughs].
[00:15:08] Adam: No, it's okay. We can meander a little bit. The goal for the person that is to keep it entertaining-- for the game master, is to keep it entertaining and whatever that means for the room, for the group of people. So in a way they're like an emcee, that if the room's really energetic they want to keep it moving. If the room is really thoughtful and wants to talk about real details, they'll play in to that?
[00:15:29] Willem: I would totally agree with that point, and that actually brings me back to the question that you originally asked, which is what's the role and how do you ensure corporation around the table? One of the ideas that are talked about a lot with the group of friends I participated in another podcast about the theory of gaming, it's in French and there's the idea of a social contract.
One of the ideas from the start of the game [unintelligible 00:15:54] is, and like any social group or construct, is what are we expecting out of this and so from the very beginning, the best thing you can do is meet together and just chat about what are we expecting out of this. If that really goes well, I would really-- because what can happen is you can have one person that shows up that wants to play Dungeons & Dragons, then another person who is like a big fan of very slapstick comedy and that's what they want, and another person is a fan of horror movies and that's what they're looking for. Another person is like a big fan of little big trouble in little China and that's what they want to be doing.
If everybody's trying to cram those things that don't work together at the same time, then you have a problem, then you have like people might be disappointed or annoyed or like that. The best thing you can do at the beginning is to lay down, okay what are we trying to do and what's the idea from that we have.
[00:16:49] Adam: Yes, I know that's interesting. So before we recorded. You and I just really quickly, I said this is how were going to-- this is how the show works and this is what I'm going to try to setup and give you three bullet points for how we're going to structure the conversation. Before you play a game, because these games are-- they're long commitments. It's not like you sit down and you play it in 15 minutes like a game of Candy Crush, you're playing for hours sometimes.
[00:17:12] Willem: Yes. Traditionally it can go for a very long time and that's why I was talking about there's newer forms that accommodate-- can be played in like 90 minutes, two hours. Which in the world of tabletop role-playing games is considered very short.
[00:17:25] Adam: Yes, right. Before the game, where you actually set expectations together and say, I would like to have this kind of game, or I'm more into this today, or let's just kill the whole day and really go deep and we'll play 14 hours?
[00:17:38] Willem: Yes. I think that's the best thing possible is to set those kinds of expectations and try to organize around what works for everyone, and what's going to be enjoyable for everyone with the time that you have. That offers like a huge amount of opportunity in different places to go, depending on the-- there's tons of options basically. It's interesting the- [crosstalk]
[00:18:05] Adam: Are there-- go ahead.
[00:18:07] Willem: - thinking about-- Sorry, I'm interrupting [unintelligible 00:18:10] parallel is going to make with the thinking about the strategy inside is-- it's funny how I think there's a parallel to be made with strategy in an ideal situation. Our job is to orchestrate and guide things going in a certain direction, but then the creative team is going to come up with the ideas that bring all of the direction and guidance to life, but we don't want to railroad them either.
All of that is inspired by what the business objectives are going to be, which can be related to, let's sit around the table and say what do we expect out of this. Just like we're going to sit around the table with the clients and the account guys to say, "Okay what's the situation here?" And ask a lot of questions about what you want. Just like I would be the first session in ideal world, it doesn't always happen like that. But, for example, a couple of years ago when I lived in the South of France and I gathered a group of people together to play a game that would be going on in a ongoing format, where we'd play once-- we ended up pretty much playing once, twice sometimes a month. With the first session we had brunch and we just talked about, "All right well, what do you expect out of the game? What kind of games do you want to play?" All that, which I was talking about earlier.
[00:19:25] Adam: I really love that. Is the game master in that case, is using the rules to drive the output of the game in some known goals in most of these games, or is it more just open wandering and experiencing the story together and not really knowing what's going to happen, or is it case by case?
[00:19:44] Willem: It depends, it's case by case. You have some adventures and stories and scenarios with campaigns, it tend to be called, that are published, that have been written by other people, so they have very clear-- This tend to have a beginning, middle, end then a lot of milestones that you have, and a lot of ideas about how can you bring people to get to Point A B Or C. Sometimes they can be very directed in which case you kind of have to coax people in that direction.
A traditional like a very old school Dungeons & Dragons game would be like that because the Dungeons & Dragons, when it was created in the 70s was created off the back of wargaming miniatures. The format was that you had squares and you had a place to go and you were literally in a dungeon so what you had to do was go from one room to the other. It was not open room like exploring a video game you can have these days.
[00:20:47] Adam: Right, just the open world.
j[00:20:50] Willem: Now you can have open world-- I mean, you could have it at the time, but now it's, and the years passes, become a lot more common to navigate and have open worlds adventures where I would be organizing with the players what their characters back stories are and if they tell me what their backstories are then I would integrate those plot points within what I'm offering to them. You offer a lot of different plot points and then the players can choose which direction they go in.
[00:21:22] Adam: Let's say it's a new game you've never played before. Let's say you get-- You're signed up for a Mysterium and you bring in six people together, do they come prepared with that story or is that something you work out together at the table and say, "Okay, I need someone to be this role or someone to be that role?"
[00:21:40] Willem: It depends, but if it's going to be a group of people-- for example, there's conventions and conferences for gaming and if it's going to be a group of people that are expected to just sit down and play, then I would organize it so that I have the five characters and you pick and choose. Do you want you this one, that one and if I have a choice of six. These fit within the adventure and like that.
If it's going to be something that we have more time to dedicate to it and we're going to be seeing each other several times, and we're maybe in-person or online because there's more and more people that play through video conferencing now as well.
[00:22:19] Adam: Right, that makes sense.
[00:22:21] Willem: Then I would have a lot more options on what kind of character do you want to create or you want to create it from the ground up. Which when I was a kid or a teenager we sometimes that's all we did. We could spend an afternoon creating characters and never actually play the game because that's--
[00:22:36] Adam: [laughs] There so much detail to go into.
[00:22:41] Willem: I have written pages and pages of stuff about possible adventures and stories and storylines and characters and like that. What's interesting is to look at techniques for drawing and designing environments in which you're going to have plot points and it ends up being a web, a web of adventure, a web of-- it has a name I can't remember, a plot web, I guess. You plot out, I have all these different characters that are part of these factions that want these things, and what could I put in the way of that to create dramatic tension.
[00:23:21] Adam: How much time goes into planning those, the plot web then? If it's, and I'm assuming it's fewer, or if it's less time, if there's two players and it's more time if there are seven players.
[00:23:31] Willem: You can really sink in a lot of times, which is why a lot of grown-ups end giving up on playing too much.
[00:23:39] Adam: The time commitment just sounds crazy just to be a game master never mind the game itself.
[00:23:46] Willem: That's probably one of the reasons there are actually entire blog posts and a book that I own that is dedicated to supporting game masters in doing things in less time. Now, there's also another direction which is doing a lot more improv. The improv community has been interestingly taken over-- not taken over but inspired by a lot of tabletop role-playing games. Here in Chicago, for example, there has--
[00:24:11] Adam: You have a great community there.
[00:24:13] Willem: Exactly. A lot of improvisers and comedians have started their own podcasting shows and there's one person who's actually making a living from it now. They just raised money on Kickstarter to start a new show. They do live playthroughs. Like how you can watch-- for people who are not familiar can watch video games, competitive video games, like E-sports
[00:24:36] Adam: E-sports, yes
[00:24:38] Willem: On Twitch TV or on YouTube. There are people that listen to podcasts of people playing role-playing games and improv comedians do it. One that's not a role-playing game but that it is quite known, another podcast you can check out is, Hello from the Magic Tavern. The same groups of people not necessarily the same comedians but do-- This one is just purely fictional it's an improv show that's fictional whether just chatting inside of this fictional medieval fantastic universe, and there are others where they're actually playing the game.
[00:25:12] Adam: I don't think I could listen to people play through a game but if it was improv comedians I'm sure it's worth listening to.
[00:25:21] Willem: I'm very much into minds about that. I'm not a huge fan of listening to other people play. I've tried it out, I've tried listening, but there is an audience for that. There are people that really are into it, so it's is a niche.
[00:25:35] Adam: Part of the gameplay and what makes it work is-- I have never played with strangers. I have played a couple games then I've played them with close friends and I think there's an intimacy to sitting around the table and imagining together and creating together, that can't be replicated.
[00:25:55] Willem: That's interesting yes, I agree and yet I'm thinking about the large conventions. I went to play once Dungeons & Dragons here in Chicago.
[00:26:04] Adam: How different is it, or how hard is it to get comfortable, or is it just admired?
[00:26:10] Willem: It really depends. From the moment you go to a convention and I've not been to tons. I want to go to more next year actually. The biggest is happening nearby Indianapolis Gen Con. But the moment you go to a convention you don't know the people you're playing with, you don't know what you going to get. It's just lot more random on whether there's going to be like any chemistry between the people that you're with, whether they like the same kind of stories as you, whether they interpret the characters the same as you.
At the same time, there's something enriching to go and find out how other people play because there's as many ways to play as that there are players really. One of the really interesting-- That's one thing that's both a challenge and a flaw and an asset of tabletop role-playing games is I completely agree with you. As you said, I believe you can get a lot more richness out of playing together and there's a certain intimacy out of creating and brainstorming with a small group and you know your friends, you know them, you know that you like to hang out with them in the first place.
[00:27:14] Adam: Exactly.
[00:27:16] Willem: It also makes it that then those groups become insulated and while there is a community there's it's a community made of tiny pockets and islands and which is also another interesting point about tabletop role-playing game. That being like how does it work as a business and as an industry. It started out as an industry selling books, so that the artists write the books and write the rules and like that. But then you only need to buy one book and you can play with your five friends for the rest of your life. You don't need to buy anything else. Unless you're really want--
[00:27:53] Adam: Right they keep on selling mods but at that it doesn't matter.
[00:27:56] Willem: No, unless you're really into it. [crosstalk]
[00:28:01] Adam: I wonder if there's anyone-- Have you ever read a study on anybody the dynamics of the familiarity of the players set.
[00:28:15] Willem: I'd like to say yes but I'm not sure. I only have anecdotal evidence from discussing things. I did do the one survey. The only things that it did I did from research perspectives as with these friends in France. We were talking about women and role-playing games because it does still have a stigma; less so these days but it still has a-- It comes with an image of basically you look like geeks that haven't seen the light of day in ages that are hanging out in a basement somewhere. And whether is only guys or not, and whether there is a lot of sexism or not et cetera.
To have a better idea of that we ran a survey in France about women and role-playing games and just gathering a bunch of different opinions and we recorded a show about it with a majority of women speaking.
[00:29:12] Adam: I love it.
[00:29:13] Willem: It was really interesting and we did gather some information that was just generally speaking opinions about gaming and then the rest of it is qualitative from talking to other players or game designers, as well. I know that the dynamics are changing I know that there's a lot more online play because it's easier to find people and it's easier to find people that you enjoy playing with and also as people grow up it's easier from a scheduling perspective.
[00:29:43] Adam: We just play late at night without leaving the house.
[00:29:45] Willem: Exactly, and we don't have as much time as we might have in the past, but then people are really into it. Spend a lot of time in conventions because it's still one of the main ways to get to interact with a lot of the rest of role-play gaming community, learn from them and learn more strategy, learn more what might be working in the future and get to play together in person. Because there's still a huge quality to being in person. It's interesting because work is the same thing.
[00:30:16] Adam: I was going to ask you about that. Is it harder to connect with people playing virtually? I would imagine, and you brought up teleworking I think it's the same thing. So it's hard to connect with the culture of the place if your dialing from home or from a coffee shop.
[00:30:28] Willem: Yes, exactly, and to so sum it up, the trend I found on playing in person versus playing online, which is quite interesting is, playing online you tend to do shorter sessions that are more focused on this topic at hand. You really like you're playing and you're playing for an hour and a half or two hours and that's it. You have less side distractions, less social aspect, less of that.
On the other hand, when you're meeting in person there might be more side conversations about what you are doing this weekend. Or should we grab beers? And what are we having for dinner? Let's order a pizza or whatever. But that's also those conversations that make it a really social activity that's a lot of fun to hung out together.
[00:31:08] Adam: Right, yes, the social activities, it's like watching football. It's less and less you realize as you get older, it's not really about watching football. It's about being together with people and needing and all shared experience.
[00:31:20] Willem: Yes. I have a little bit of the same experience on teleworking because I've done a lot of remote work while freelancing. I think there's still a place for having the balance between being able to be in the office and be away. Because it's totally true that a lot of my work is done really in front of the computer. There's some really good work that's done in common for like ideation/brainstorming sessions, if they are really well prepared.
Sometimes there is so many of these meetings that you can get bogged down in conversation and get confused rather than, "Okay, this is brief, I've asked all the questions let me step back and do all the work." And that work can be done remotely and then come back for a meeting where we talk about it. Both have values. Because as social beings we have so many cues that we get from being face-to-face that build trust that's not really about the quality of the work itself, but it's building the ability to more easily do work together if we spend time face to face.
[00:32:25] Adam: Right. A lot of it is just building up the ability to do it better together going forward, the same thing with playing a game. If you are sitting there together and you've played a few times you get a shorthand going. This was awesome. I think that we could probably go on for another hour, but I think we've covered the top of this, Willem. Willem, I may have to invite you back for a sequel so we can continue this talk.
[00:32:47] Willem: As I said, when you asked me like I had to choose one topic, I was like, "Really, I can only have one topic?"
[00:32:52] Adam: It's so funny because I invite people on and they are like, "Oh, it's going to take me months to think of a topic." And I asked you and were like, "I have a topic." Right away. You were like, "I have a lot of topics, can I just pick one?"
[00:33:02] Willem: Yes, I filled in first and I first wrote six and then I asked you if I had only had to pick one , was like, "Okay, pick one."
[00:33:09] Adam: Yes. [laughs] Thank you. I really appreciate it. Well, this has been awesome and I think you can come back and ping you later on to do another episode for sure. This is really interesting.
[00:33:21] Willem: Yes, great, thank you for having me. I really appreciate, it's fun conversation.
[00:33:24] Adam: Of course, man, it's always interesting to hear when there's an expert or someone who is passionate. I was so excited to get started before I mispronounce it, your podcast is, Ice Cream for Everyone and if you are looking for a it guys, it is on all the platforms, it's on Stitcher, it's on Apple and you can find Willem's website at icecreamforeveryone.net. I will also include a link to an article or maybe a couple more on tabletop RPG that you sent me but also something that I found just trying to prepare for this. Where can people find you online, if they are looking for you?
[00:33:59] Willem: All my stuff is on the website, which as you said, is icecreamforeveryone.net all spelled out. Otherwise, you could find me on Twitter, my handle is @icwillem letters I-C and then Willem is W-I-L-L-E-M, or if you want to email me is firstname.lastname@example.org.
[00:34:18] Adam: Perfect. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening and if you like this episode please share with someone that you think would enjoy it. We appreciate all the lessons and we appreciate all the feedback on Twitter. Keep it coming.
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