Alex Berger on Phish and Brand Loyalty*
*This episode contains no nudes.
[00:00:27] Adam Pierno: All right. Welcome back to another episode of The Strategy Inside Everything. We have a very, very, very interesting guest and a very, very weird topic that I have put my nose up at many times in the past, that's why I was so excited to see it as a topic. With me today, he walked all the way down the hall, is Mr. Alex Berger. He is a strategist here, a senior strategist here at Santy. Say hello to the audience, Mr. Berger.
[00:01:01] [00:01:04] Alex Berger: Hello everyone, it's a pleasure to be here. It's such an honor.
[00:01:04] Adam: What was the commute like getting over here, into the studio?
[00:01:07] Alex: There was some traffic, I had some chairs to maneuver around, and some people to throw out of my way, but I made it.
[00:01:16] Adam: The people from the California office are here, so, it's just totally crammed up.
[00:01:19] Alex:That's right.
[00:01:20] Adam: Yes. I get it. Hey, would you do me a favor and give the people that are listening a little background on who you are, and then we will dive in to the topic.
[00:01:28] Alex: Sure. Absolutely. I have been at Santy now for a while, almost five years, I'm a strategist here. I am one of the lucky ones who knew from a young age that I wanted to be in the advertising industry, and followed that dream and passion. I'm originally from St. Louis, Missouri. Worked at a sales promotions agency there, spent a very brief stint outside of the ad industry, although not really, at the Orange County Register doing some social media management there, and then landed here in Phoenix, Arizona.
[00:02:04] Adam: Beautiful.
[00:02:06] Alex: Where I help shepherd brands.
[00:02:09] Adam: That's what we do, buddy, I know. I'm with you every day. The topic that we're going to talk about today, and you're really nailing the format of the show, we're going to talk about something that sounds like it has absolutely nothing to do with strategy, and something that, like I said, I turned my nose up at. We're going to talk about Phish.
[00:02:26] Alex: Yes. That's P-H, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:02:30] Adam: Exactly, the band, which is not my cup of tea, but-
[00:02:34] Alex: It's a shame.
[00:02:36] Adam: -that's cool. That's all right, that's the point. So you had sent some articles to me about the Baker's Dozen tour that they wrapped up this spring, summer?
[00:02:46] Alex: Summer, Yes. At the beginning of August was their last show, I believe.
[00:02:51] Adam: Give the listeners a little background. For those of us who are not into Phish, and didn't keep up with the news, because it was pretty newsworthy what they did.
[00:03:00] Alex: Yes, it was.
[00:03:01] Adam: Give us a little background.
[00:03:02] Alex: Phish did a residency at Madison Square Garden, which is obviously a very famous venue known around the world. And actually they set a record for the most consecutive concerts ever played there, eclipsing Billy Joel, that you may have heard of.
[00:03:18] Adam: That's huge.
[00:03:20] Alex: They actually have a rafter now hanging in Madison Square Garden commemorating the 13th show.
[00:03:25] Adam: Do they really?
[00:03:26] Alex: Yes.
[00:03:26] Adam: What does it look like?
[00:03:27] Alex: Well, it looks like a banner with--
[00:03:31] Adam: It's next to the Rangers? Stanley Cup?
[00:03:34] Alex: Yes. There used to be a Billy Joel banner with the number 12, and now there's a Phish banner with the number 13. It looks much cooler than the Billy Joel one, it's got a little design to it.
[00:03:44] Adam: So, they sold out 13 consecutive nights?
[00:03:47] Alex: Yes. Oh, no. They did not sell out all 13 shows. I believe they sold out about five or six, but they-- Because it was every day of the week that they were playing there, so like on a Wednesday night it's hard to sell out. But the weekend sold out, and I believe they pulled in just under 300,000. I think it was like 270,000 fans or something like that over the 13-day period.
[00:04:13] Adam: Holy shit.
[00:04:15] Alex: Yes. They played 13 shows, they webcast it live every evening. So, for us Phishheads who couldn't make the trek out to New York, we were on what's called couch tour, where you can watch it from the couch at home. And they did not repeat a song the entire night, and also--
[00:04:35] Adam: Didn't you watch one of the shows from a wedding? Weren't you at a wedding for one of the shows?
[00:04:39] Alex: I have watched it from inappropriate places. Family gatherings, I'll have it streaming from my phone every now and then, but Baker's Dozen, Phish is a fun band and each night they gave away donuts, and the donut would signify something that they would play during that evening. So they had a strawberry jam filled donut that they gave away one night, and I think they did like a 40-minute jam on a song that they usually don't jam on. The band does cool engaging stuff like that a lot of the time.
They try to do unexpected different things to keep themselves interested, honestly. These guys are now in their early to mid 50s, and a few of them live in Manhattan. I think playing at MSG just made it really easy for them, but they're trying to keep it fresh and doing creative things, like the donut tie-in to he actual songs that they played was cool. Then it also became exciting online when they announced what the donut was. The night--
[00:05:50] Adam: People were getting excited and trying to figure out what it was going to mean, yes?
[00:05:52] Alex: Yes. Exactly. Am I talking way too much? [laughs]
[00:05:55] Adam: No, no, no. It's interesting to me because it is part of what I like about it as a topic, but just as a pop culture thing, they have figured out how to-- They have a sub-culture of people who love them, right? Their fans, and they have continued to figure out, way after way, after way, to stimulate those fans and keep them engaged. It's not easy for-- There's not a lot of bands that stay relevant for 20-something years, right?
[00:06:21] Alex: Yes. Over [ inaudible 00:06:23].
[00:06:23] Adam: And relevant is-- Put it in quotes, but because they've never been a charting act.
[00:06:27] Alex: Correct.
[00:06:28] Adam: But, they have this core group of fans who will come see them 13 nights in a row and fill Madison Square Garden.
[00:06:34] Alex: Yes, a they haven't burned out their fans either. Although some of the fans are definitely-- You can describe as burnouts, not me [inaudible 00:06:44]. But they're still bringing in-- I feel like they're still bringing any younger audience when I go to shows. I see people younger than me now, and like I said, they keep it fresh and different. I think that goes hand-in-hand with really, as we were talking briefly before we started recording, this is a band that came of age during the start of the internet, and really grew a community. A community grew up around the internet with the band, so, they really gravitated to Phish that has gravitated to being able to use the internet in ways to harness their popularity, and connect themselves with their fans and keep them engaged.
[00:07:33] Adam: They have really figured out some ways to create-- I mean, they have a media strategy in a sense, that would put a lot of brands to shame.
[00:07:41] Alex: Yes.
[00:07:42] Adam: The way that they figured out how to-- I mean, they make a lot more content than most brands, but the way they figured out through their app and through their web site to-- Essentially, they don't monetize every single thing, but they've leveraged every single asset, every single piece of content that they create.
[00:07:59] Alex: Yes.
[00:08:00] Adam: Tell me more about the tickets, because that I did not understand. We'll get back to streaming the shows and the download of music, but talk about the tickets by mail thing.
[00:08:09] Alex: Yes. There's what's called Phish Tickets By Mail, and it originally started-- This isn't really a new concept, but you used to be able to write in to the band to get your tickets before they went on sale to the general public. Before the internet, you could send a ticket request to the central office.
[00:08:31] Adam: Send them like a self-addressed stamped envelope with a check?
[00:08:34] Alex: Exactly.
[00:08:35] Adam: Crazy.
[00:08:36] Alex: So, Phish gets their own allotment of tickets that they can sell to the public, and what they decided to do was take that as an opportunity to actually create really cool piece of branded material. So, if you look up online, Phish Tickets By Mail images, you'll see these beautifully--
[00:08:56] Adam: We'll link to it.
[00:08:58] Alex: You'll see these really cool graphic design tickets that end up really being something sought after in the secondary market. They'll send you these tickets that then-- I'm probably getting a little bit ahead of myself, but you can actually-- Now, today, there's a ticket code on it that you can then go to their app and download the show. And now you can always stream it, but you used to be able to actually download the show. These tickets are really cool, and all the serious Phishheads, those are the tickets that they want, rather than the generic Ticketmaster tickets.
[00:09:35] Adam: Right. No, I haven't pulled up images of them here, I am going to link to some of this, because it is beautiful. Even if you're not into Phish, they're just--They're really a lot of detail, and they're cool to look at. I can lose myself in trying to--
[00:09:48] Alex: They have also some really famous artists and graphic designers do their posters too, so if you're into graphic design, check out Phish posters and I think there are some very notable artist that they work with. I know some art directors here actually know these names of these people that do the poster art for Phish as well.
[00:10:10] Adam: So, music as a whole has become funneled into iTunes and Spotify. I've never looked for Phish on either of those platforms because it's just not what I'm into, but they seem to have escaped the black hole of the streaming wars and just becoming commoditized. They are still able to still fill 13 nights, whereas most new acts cannot do that. There's break out bands or break out artists, but for the most part you're getting paid a half a cent per play, and that's your lot in life which is pretty bleak. But this guys have figured out how to keep these fans coming back and finding new ways to engage.
Alex: [00:10:49] Yes. What they've done recently over the last-- I think the LivePhish app launch, I want to say maybe four or five years ago, and it was off of their original online platform that housed all of their live music that the band has released themselves. So now, less than-- Usually within hours after the show, after a concert, a mp3, mp4, whatever the state of the art audio files are, they become available right after the show. So if you are not able to attend, you can get the show on your LivePhish app which costs you $10 a month to have. [laughs]
[00:11:41] Adam: Yes, so it's the same as my Spotify.
[00:11:42] Alex: Yes, exactly, $10 a month, and you also get video content from them as well. One thing that they do, they always release-- Most of the shows now, when they play live, they do have a production team there and they're recording video, and so what they'll always do usually the next day is release a song from the show and they'll do it through all their social media channels. They'll post a video, and for me as a fan, I'll watch the video and I'll be like, "Oh man, that song was great. I want to download the rest of the show."
[00:12:18] Adam: Yes, the whole show must have been good.
[00:12:20] Alex: Right, exactly.
[00:12:20] Adam: But they pick, they obviously cherry-pick the best song, different from the songs they've done in the past week, and it's recorded off the board, so the sound is amazing.
[00:12:28] Alex: Yes. And honestly, [laughs] fomo is a huge thing with Phish, right?
[00:12:34] Adam: Well, it's a huge thing with any kind of pop culture.
[00:12:37] Alex: Yes.
[00:12:37] Adam: Right?
[00:12:37] Alex: Yes. So, if you go online to some of the message boards, and you hear people talking about the show from last night was especially good, you are going to go to the LivePhish app. If you don't have it yet at this point, you are going to go get it, because this show was what we call epic-
[00:12:54] Adam: Right. [laughs]
[00:12:55] Alex: -and we just want to be kept in the know and make sure that we hear all the recent good stuff. I mean, the run for Baker's Dozen at MSG was some of the best shows that they've played in probably a decade.
[00:13:12] Adam: Were they on hiatus for a while before that?
[00:13:14] Alex: No, they went on hiatus from 2003 to 2009, so they have been back with a vengeance ever since, yes.
[00:13:24] Adam: So it's not-- I mean, Baker's Dozen is an event-- I mean, their numbers on the rafters at the Garden, that's pretty cool. To me, though, having an app that they can charge fans $10 a month for is fucking crazy. I mean, it's fucking crazy that they have enough-- I guess they don't need to make any money, because the content they are going to create for free anyway, or they are going to get paid to create it anyway, I should say, so it's subsidized, right?
[00:13:53] Alex: Yes.
[00:13:53] Adam: And then it's just put into an outlet that already existed through their website. They create an app which was some investment, but I'm sure it wasn't a crazy investment. Is all just streaming? It is all on demand? If you were a subscriber, you had access to everything, or is it tiered?
[00:14:07] Alex: No, yes, you have access to everything. You can pay monthly or for an entire year. I think it's a $100, so you get a little bit of savings if you pay upfront 100 bucks, yes. [laughs]
[00:14:15] Adam: What a deal.
[00:14:17] Alex: Yes. I don't know of too many other bands-- I'm sure there are other bands that do this, but I just think it-- At the time, again, this was probably 2010-ish 2011, when this came out. I think it's really, really innovative, and a really smart business idea for when-- Bands today are fighting tooth and nail to keep some recurring revenue, especially if you are not a band that's releasing singles that are in the top 40 or something like that, which Phish definitely is not. [laughs]
[00:14:52] Adam: I don't think they ever have, have they?
[00:14:53] Alex: No, not really.
[00:14:55] Adam: So, do they-- I wonder what-- Because who else is another band, Pearl Jam's another band that has been known for touring and releasing their own recordings of the tour, and releasing their albums. There was like two years where they released every single show. They have a serious channel.
[00:15:14] Alex: Yes. Radiohead is another one. They released In Rainbows for free, actually.
[00:15:20] Adam: Not for free, it was--
[00:15:21] Alex: Right, you could--
[00:15:23] Adam: Pay what you want, yes.
[00:15:24] Alex: Right, yes.
[00:15:25] Adam: Exactly. Who else? Somebody else did that too.
[00:15:28] Alex: Yes. Was it Arcade Fire?
[00:15:31] Adam: Maybe, yes. It was a pay want you want type of deal.
[00:15:33] Alex: Right.
[00:15:35] Adam: But Phish probably doesn't need to even do that, because with the streaming it's just like, "We'll just keep putting your music on." But they don't record studio albums anymore, do they?
[00:15:42] Alex: No, they do. It's a common misconception. Their last album came out last year, Big Boat. We don't talk too much about Big Boat.
[00:15:51] Adam: Does everybody go to the bathroom and go [unintelligible 00:15:53].
[00:15:54] Alex: There are some piss songs for sure [unintelligible 00:15:56] the entire catalogue.
[00:15:58] Adam: Well, it's like, they can't all be hits.
[00:16:00] Alex: No, definitely not.
[00:16:02] Adam: In that case, maybe a couple of hits would be good for me, but--
[00:16:06] Alex: Yes. It's crazy too that this is a band where a majority of people laugh them off, and they are travelling around with a full production, video production team. I think they play, let's say 30 to 35 nights a year now. They have scaled way, way back. But it's just the fact that they can pay for this and obviously making a very--
[00:16:37] Adam: Yes, exactly, exactly. Does the tour pay for the streaming, or does the streaming pay for the tour? Which promotes the other? Or it is it like the full circle deal where they just keep wagging each other?
[00:16:46] Alex: I think it's that, yes.
[00:16:48] Adam: The streaming keeps people engaged until they finally make it back to your town, and then you are going to see him two nights in a row.
[00:16:53] Alex: Right. And when Periscope or the live video stuff started coming out, Phish streaming, the webcast truly quashed Periscope or any of these other live streaming platforms, because the qual-- We're talking 1080 HD quality.
[00:17:15] Adam: So even though you could see it for free, you'd still rather pay because the quality is so much better.
[00:17:19] Alex: Yes the quality of the video and the sound.
[00:17:21] Adam: Do they stamp out the Periscope so they don't even care [unintelligible 00:17:23]?
[00:17:24] Alex: They don't care, because this is a band that comes from the tape culture of the [unintelligible 00:17:29] where you'd trade tapes, so they don't really care too much about that. They do want music to be free too.
[00:17:36] Adam: Do they restrict bootleg? I mean, nobody bootlegs anymore, I don't think but do they [unintelligible 00:17:40]?
[00:17:40] Alex: Well, now there are tapers. Tapers still go to their shows.
[00:17:42] Adam: And they're cool with it?
[00:17:43] Alex: Yes, definitely.
[00:17:45] Adam: So, they live in the content should be free mindset-
[00:17:49] Alex: Right.
[00:17:50] Adam: And they're thriving?
[00:17:52] Alex: Exactly, because at the end of the day, they are putting out the best version of that content themselves. So, they're like, "Okay, well, if a taper-- If this culture or this group of people still want to do that, absolutely, go for it. We understand that it's a passion with the fans, so why stop them?" I mean, there still are taper only sections at shows I believe still, so they still respect and give these guys props, yes.
[00:18:21] Adam: Weird. That's a weird subculture. That would be an interesting ethnography to do, like, "Let's go study tapers." Because that does not make any sense, there is no reason for it.
[00:18:31] Alex: Well, today there isn't, right. But back in the day--
[00:18:33] Adam: Yes. But to see those guys with those machines and headsets on and you're like, "What are you doing?"
[00:18:37] Alex: [laughs] Also, it's if you're a real fan of the band, it's always the best place to stand around the tapers, because everyone's quiet.
[00:18:46] Adam: Yes, respectful of the tapers?
[00:18:49] Alex: Respectful of the tapers but also respectful of the music too, because you don't have some drunk or stand out of your mind guy screaming the entire time, because the tapers will kick them out of the area and be like, "Get the fuck out of here, dude."
[00:19:00] Adam: We're trying to record, yes.
[00:19:00] Alex: Yes. [laughs]
[00:19:01] Adam: I don't understand it. So, they've continued this, I wouldn't call it an empire, but it is an empire. They've built and island around themselves as the rest of the music has shrunk, except for 10 bands, right?
[00:19:14] Alex: Right.
[00:19:14] Adam: There's not that many that are still standing. They have continued to thrive and continued to carry this fan base which is still growing. It's not like there is nobody under 20 or nobody under 30 at the shows. There is nobody under 20, though, is there?
[00:19:28] Alex: I'm sure.
[00:19:28] Adam: There are? You think so?
[00:19:30] Alex: Yes, definitely. I mean, it's still--
[00:19:32] Adam: [unintelligible 00:19:32].
[00:19:33] Alex: That's the other thing too. I mean, it's an experience. I know I probably sound way up my own ass here, but it's still-- I think it's one of-- There are a handful of bands out there touring, where it's still a very unique experience, because they play a different show every night. There's definitely-- It's an experience, just like going to see the Rolling Stones in the '60s was an experience, or going to see the Ded. I mean, it is still something that youth culture is attracted to, because they can go, smoke weed and listen to these amazing musicians.
[00:20:16] Adam: Plus, they're going to play a bunch of covers that are unexpected and weird, and make it a memorable night.
[00:20:22] Alex: Yes.
[00:20:23] Adam: It's really interesting to me, because I just try to figure out if-- So, they're putting out the streaming. Is that attracting young audiences? At 10 bucks a month, I'm thinking probably people are not just going to plunk down 10 bucks and give it a go when they could be on Spotify and have all the music in world except for Phish. Or Netflix, or something else that's competing for that $10 a month, so how-- I see how once I'm in it becomes a big loyalty play, right? Because there is fomo, and there is the subculture, and there's guys know what's happening. I don't want to miss out, so I'm going to get to streaming, so that I can be in the know and hear whatever happened last night. But how do I access the culture? If I wanted to start listening, I don't know--
[00:21:09] Alex: It's too late for you. [laughs]
[00:21:11] Adam: Yes. Right? If I find a new podcast, if I go into Overcast and I'm looking for recommendations, if it has more than 50 episodes, I'm like-
[00:21:24] Alex: [laughs]
[00:21:24] Adam: -"The train has already left the station." I don't want to have to figure out 100 episodes of back story that are like--
[00:21:26] Alex: Yes. It gets intimidating, right? Well, it's funny. Marc Maron just put out his new comedy special on Netflix, and he makes a joke. He has this whole bit about--
[00:21:39] Adam: He's got a podcast with 700 episodes, right?
[00:21:42] Alex: Yes, right. He has this whole bit in his special about-- He basically does this satire on all these channels and TV shows that he hasn't heard about, and how the fuck does he have time to watch these crazy niche shows out there. And then he actually talks about Phish. Like, "I don't have time. I'm in my late 50s, when am I going to start listening to Phish now? I'm sure I'd like them, but I just can't open that can of worms."
[00:22:09] Adam: Right, because it's an endless stream of music that will dump on your head.
[00:22:13] Alex: Right. But how people get into it, and again, you might be too old for it, is-- I got into Phish initially from my sister, and she had a couple live shows on CD, and then I went to a concert. I started listening to them way before I went, because they were on and off for a while in the early 2000s. Anyway, I think what they do that is really smart, if you're young guy or girl going to a Phish show, and you get that ticket, and you get that free stream-- Now they don't do free downloads anymore, but you get that free stream, so you have that now, that piece of the band and you have that--
[00:22:56] Adam: That's the way in.
[00:22:56] Alex: And if you like it-- Right.
[00:22:57] Adam: So, post-show they stream it live one time for free?
[00:23:00] Alex: No, you have that. You can keep on streaming that show, you just can't download it from the app. I think like any other subculture, if you're really into it and you dig it, you're going to seek it out more. And granted, yes, there's this massive, huge catalog, but there's also-- Believe it or not, there are these resources online that help you, sherpa you, if you will, through the band. There is phish.net--
[00:23:28] Adam: What? There is a bunch of tour guide sites that help you understand how--
[00:23:31] Alex: Exactly.
[00:23:32] Adam: Oh my God.
[00:23:32] Alex: Yes. They're like, "So you just went to your first Phish show. Here are some things you should check out, here are a few awesome studio albums, here are some cool live shows that you should try to find."
[00:23:40] Adam: You know what's really-- Okay, and those things are not run by Phish? Those are run by fans.
[00:23:44] Alex: No, those are run by the fans, yes.
[00:23:46] Adam: So, let's say it was like Budweiser, right? They are not going to produce content or a website that's like, "So, you tried beer. Here are some other things that are about beer that would be interesting to you." I don't think brands have figured out how to create this accessibility where people--
[00:24:04] Alex: Well, it's customer journey mapping, right? I mean-- [laughs]
[00:24:08] Adam: I guess it is. I guess it is. But I'm just watching the Phish train go by, and I'm like, "God, that thing's still going?"
[00:24:13] Alex: [laughs]
[00:24:13] Adam: "That's already been past me for a long time." But when I think about brands, sometimes it's the same thing. More, more content. I mean, I could always get a beer and try it, and I do.
[00:24:26] Alex: Right. I guess, yes. [laughs]
[00:24:27] Adam: But I think that accessibility is a challenge that a lot of brands have. How do people-- What's the entry point? How do they try it? How do they engage with people who like it? Most brands would kill to have a subculture like what Phish has.
[00:24:41] Alex: Yes. And the band knows it, right? They know how their fans come to them. They know it's maybe through a relative or through a friend.
[00:24:48] Adam: Do you think those dudes have a journey map that they-
[00:24:51] Alex: [laughs] That's a great question.
[00:24:52] Adam: -have laid boarded out with a planner, standing there, mapping it all out?
[00:24:55] Alex: I'm sure--
[00:24:56] Adam: [unintelligible 00:24:57].
[00:24:57] Alex: They're managed by--
[00:25:00] Adam: "In our Cleveland focus groups, they said that they really didn't understand the Phish tickets by mail thing. We really have to amp that story up."
[00:25:07] Alex: Well, yes. But I think back in the day-- I don't think they do it anymore, because now they really don't give a shit. But I think they would check in on message boards, they would hear what people are saying about them. I've never been served a survey [laughs] on their website or anything like that, but I think it's a really good case study in terms of loyalty and brand engagement, if you will. Because these guys, like you said, they really have mastered content both online and offline too. The merch is a whole other thing. I was listening to a podcast with-- I think his name is Nathan Hubbard, the Bill Simons podcast, and this guy was-- Hubbard was the former CEO of Ticketmaster.
[00:25:57] Adam: Yes, it was like two months ago.
[00:25:59] Alex: Right, and he was talking about how these touring acts keep it going, like Dave Matthews. I was waiting for him to say Phish, because I think Dave and Phish probably come from the same tree, if you will. But yes, when you talk about merch, there is another huge-- Obviously, merch isn't anything new, but they--
[00:26:19] Adam: But that keeps the bus gassed up.
[00:26:20] Alex: Right. And Dave and Phish for a long time, but Dave still I think does, they own their entire merch business. It's not gone out to a second party where somebody else is making all the merch. They control it.
[00:26:33] Adam: So it's vertical integration. They control the content, they control the merch, they control the tour, they even control the art on the tickets, every single part, so it's all brand consistent.
[00:26:42] Alex: Yes, brand consistency.
[00:26:43] Adam: You see, bro? You see what just happened? It just got magical in here.
[00:26:46] Alex: Yes. [laughs]
[00:26:48] Adam: All right, well, I think people that don't like Phish probably already tuned out, and the people who did like Phish are desperate to tune out and go stream Boston Garden 1991. Killer shows, bro. Killer.
[00:27:02] Alex: I just can't believe that you-- Because you were in the bosom of Phish, growing up where you were, and going to school where you did. How did you miss that?
[00:27:08] Adam: If I tell people that I'm from Long Island, they'll always say, "Oh, did you see Phish at the Coliseum?" "No, I didn't see Phish at the Coliseum, or the Garden, or Providence." Yes. But that was a sweet spot, the Nashua Civic Center. Ugh.
[00:27:21] Alex: [laughs]
[00:27:23] Adam: All right, well, I think we've beaten this topic to death. Alex, thank you very much. How can people find you?
[00:27:29] Alex: I'm on Twitter, kind of-
[00:27:43] Adam: No nudes, though?
[00:27:45] Alex: No.
[00:27:45] Adam: Just be cool.
[00:27:45] Alex: Just be cool. And [unintelligible 00:27:47] find me on Instagram too, I work here at Santy.
[00:27:51] Adam: Awesome. And everybody listening, I'm @apierno on Twitter. You can find me also @instil_strategy on Twitter as well. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review in whatever podcast too you are listening to us with, or refer us to a friend, we'd really appreciate it, and send feedback to us through Twitter. We love the notes that we get. Keeps us moving. Thanks a lot.
[00:28:26] [END OF AUDIO]